Dear Somboon Chungrampree,
thank you very much for granting this interview and welcoming me here in the office of the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB) in Bangkok, Thailand.
First of all let me introduce you to my readers, for those who may not know you.
Somboon Chungrampree
You are a Thai social activist working for peace and justice across Asia and around the world. As a university student, you were involved in student movements that focus in environmental justice in Thailand. Since 1997 you have worked in different positions with key Thai/Regional/International organizations such as the Sathirakoses-Nagapradipa Foundation. You are the Co-manager for the school of wellbeing studies and research.
Currently you are the program director of Spirit in Education Movement, focusing on empowering civil society in Burma, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand. Also you are the acting executive secretary general of the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB).
The International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB) is an organization that connects engaged Buddhists from around the world. It was established by leading Buddhists including the 14th Dalai Lama, the Vietnamese monk and peace-activist Thich Nhat Hanh and the Theravada Bhikkhu Maha Ghosananda, at a meeting in Thailand in February 1989 organised by Sulak Sivaraksa and Maruyama Teruo. INEB maintains an office in Bangkok. It has members in about 20 countries around the world, mostly in Asia, but also in the USA, Australia and Europe. Its members include monks, nuns, activists, academics and social workers. While it is a Buddhist organisation some of its members come from other spiritual traditions and interfaith activities are part of its program. INEB holds an international conference of its members once every two years.
Somboon Chungrampree and me
1- MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: What is engaged Buddhism
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Engaged Buddhism is how to make people to have a more holistic view, non-dualistic view, to be enlightened and help the people. So the main thing is how to become enlighten before helping society
2- MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: If to have a non dualistic view, is not to see bad and good, wrong and right. Why to engage then in society?
Sumboon Chungrampree: it depends on the person, sometimes they need to practice more, sometimes they need to engage more. Don’t make it too general. The individual practice is important so is activism with the community of activists.
3- MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: Correct me if wrong, it is my understanding that, the International Network of Engaged Buddhists strives for social justice and peace. What does the International Network of Engaged Buddhists think about non dualistic schools of Buddhism like Zen that do not differentiate between bad and good, right and wrong?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPRE: it depends, the view of right and wrong is one thing. The way how to check whether you do right or wrong is your ego, sometimes you think you do the right thing but your ego is becoming bigger. It is not the way of Buddhism.
4- MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: So the International Network of Engaged Buddhists welcomes Zen Buddhists?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: why not, we also have a lot of people from Zen Buddhism, our network crosses tradition it goes beyond tradition. We have Theravada, Mahayana, western Buddhists even other religions and non believers.
5-MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : In Buddhism we have the notion of karma, although the notion of karma is very complex and difficult to understand, some people talk about karma as the reward of our own actions, the consequence of our own actions. That is, if people experience bad things like terrorism, it is just because in their previous lives they were terrorists.
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Karma is only the scope of the individual, you also have collective karma, you are in the bad situation not only because of your own karma, and society also creates the karma. It is like an energy that carries on. Certain people are born in certain places, families, in certain situations and so on, that kind of habit is energy. But how to deal with the karma you have to be at the present moment. Karma is the past and you can’t do anything about the past. Be in the present moment and change. Do the right action in the present moment
6-MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : Does engaged Buddhism differ from social activism? If yes in what sense?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Well it is the same, the way of checking either engaged Buddhism or social activism. It depends on your ego whether your ego is getting smaller or bigger, sometimes they feel like they are helping other while their ego is becoming bigger. It is not the way.
7 MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: Do you think that an activist who does not follow any form of spirituality can be efficient in social actions?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: it could be right and better than those who call themselves Buddhists and whatever.
8- MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: So an activist can be more efficient even if he does not follow any kind of spiritual movement?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: That is right.
9-MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : It goes without saying that terrorism is the ultimate pandemic from which our planet suffers from. In one way or another we all are victims of a form of terrorism or another. No single corner of our planet is being spared from terrorism. However despite the countless efforts of world organizations such as the United Nations and multinational forces, terrorism just intensifies around the world and just seems that terrorism is a global phenomenon that can’t be eradicated and a disease that our world will never be cured of. Therefore we are bound to live in a permanent state of fear in a terrorist world.
Does the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB) think that terrorism can be eradicated? And if yes what are the solutions for the eradication of terrorism proposed by the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB)? And why does the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB) believes that, if its solutions are applied by world organizations and super powers, our world we will be freed from terrorism?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: if really we believe in the Buddha teaching, the Buddha tried to transform the view of the extremists into the middle way. Also as an individual we can react into the masse, into the society with the middle way. Also it is our mission as engaged Buddhists to help other to go beyond this extremism.
10.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: So terrorism can be eradicated?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: yes and we have to make it collectively
11.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : And what are the solutions proposed by the International Network of Engaged Buddhists?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: We have to work first on the individual level by transforming our spiritual life then engage collectively to political, economical and social systems.
12.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: Can you be more explicit
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Politicians are those who are dealing in the system. We have to be honest, super powers have to bring the truth on the table.
13-MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: Do you believe that if we follow the teaching of the Buddha and we work with political and economical systems, terrorism can be eradicated?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Sure there are lot of wars and violence happening because of greed, because of oil, gas, and those kinds of things. Violence is taking place everywhere in the world because of greed and hatred and another thing is that they think that they are better, than others. Those kinds of things coupled with wrong views and illusion are behind terrorism.
14-MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: When you say, they think that they are better, who are you referring to? Are you referring to the western world, the super powers of this world?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Not only the western world, everywhere, even in Thai society, those who have power think that they are better than others, it is everywhere, even in the family you can see that. It starts on the family level up to the whole society, and national level. You can even see that in Buddhist temples, although they are Buddhists.
15-MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: Buddhism is a religion of non violence. Is the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB) opposed military response as the solution against terrorism?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Yes
16.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : So you are against the bombing in the Middle East and in Africa in the name of counterterrorism? So you think we can eradicate terrorism without going to war?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: I am against the bombing everywhere, I am also against the shooting in the US.
17-MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: How can we eradicate terrorism without using weapons, without going to war against terrorists?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: I think we have to go through discussion and dialogue and bring the truth on the table, have the patience. Sometimes this super powers countries they play behind the scene, they don’t bring everything on the table, they want profit, better things, and these kinds of things are not fair to others. It just like in Kosovo, Kosovo is the battle field of super powers. For those who have the money like the US, and those who have oil like Saudi Arabia. These kinds of things make war to happen.
18. MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: What do you think about those who say that, terrorists don’t want to sit around the table and discuss? And Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead? Would you not agree that the Muslim minority commity of Nyamar is being terrorised and in regard to this, what has been the response of The International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB)?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: I think there are some way to do it, even there are some extremists Buddhists in Burma and Sri Lanka, i deal with them. I went to them, they are human, and they have heart, brain, feeling, family and everything like us. But we have to try skilful means to engage and talk to them. i worked with Sri Lankan monks who were against Muslims and they are my friends now and they have changed. I went there, and i told them that i come from a Buddhist organization and they come and listen to me. They said that we are the first international Buddhist organization that came to them. l talk to them , and i invited them to come to Thailand to see how other Buddhist groups in Thailand encounter other religions and how they are dealing with modern society.
19. MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: So you believe that we can talk with IS in the Middle East, Boko Haram in Africa?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: I am not Muslim, i am Buddhist and i can only deal with Buddhists, at the same time i work with moderate Muslims, they have to also engage with their own people, those who have the same beliefs. i encourage them to do so, but i can’t do that, it goes beyond my capacity, you have to know your capacity, but as a Buddhist i deal with these extremist Buddhists. Nobody can do everything, it is not possible, you have to know yourself, what you can do and what you can’t.
20.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : When you say that the super powers are not honest, they don’t bring the truth on the table, they hide the truth under the table, what can we do about it., since they are super powers?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: some have to challenge them, to show the other way possible.
21.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: When you talk about supers powers, we are talking about the six permanent members of the UN security council. Some people say that Russia is trying to balance the world. What do you think about it?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: i do believe check and balance system, but i don’t know who is playing what role. You see the history of the UN is just 60 or 70 years, compared with the mechanism in our world. There must be other way.
22. MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: The Four Noble Truths are considered by Buddhists around the world regardless of their denomination, as the core and most important teaching of the Buddha. According to the first noble truth stated by the Buddha: ‘’ Life is suffering’’. According to this truth, should we understand and accept terrorism as a normal characteristic of human life such as eating and sleeping?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: No, suffering is there as we see, and we have to analyze what is the root cause of the problem, what is the root cause of suffering, the cause and the effect, that make suffering happen and we have to understand the individual, and then you will not enter to suffering. We should not only focus on one. The Four Noble Truths is four things.
23. MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: Actually you are rights, the Four Noble Truths is four things, actually the second noble truth says that: suffering comes from within, and not outside so why to engage?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Not necessarily every time suffering comes from within, it depends on the cause and effect, you have to analyze. Sometimes it comes from outside. That is why when you mention the cause and effect, actually, cause and effect are the words that the Buddha used and it is where suffering comes from.
24.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : Ken Jones, a very popular engaged Buddhist in the West and author of the brilliant book: ‘’ The New Social Face of Buddhism’’. In the said book, Ken Jones wrote:
” Global terrorism has complex origins, but in the final analysis they cannot be separated from the poverty and sense of powerlessness of millions of the world’s peoples subject to global, free market capitalism. The whole spectrum of global problems, from the military to the ecological, require the dismantly of this system and its replacement by a much more equitable and egalitarian global economy, backed by a system of authentically democratic, global decision making”.
Does the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB) share Ken Jones point of view on the causes of terrorism?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Yes,
25. MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: So according to Ken Jones, terrorism is born out of social injustice, economical depravation, do you share that view?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Yes
26.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: In that sense, what can the International Network of Engaged Buddhists advice to world leaders?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: From the Buddhist analysis, the misconduct of the political, economical and military exercise is driven by greed, hatred, and delusion, and we need to interpret that. You may not have greed, but you allow banks and others to exercise their greed as institutions, as the system. How we can change that. You may not have hatred, but you allow the military to exercise their power, violence and so on. Also the media, education, also illusion, and brain wash the people.
28.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI . You have just said something very very important, the media brain washes the people. So the perception given to us by media on what terrorism is, is totally false?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE. Yes, not only the media, even education.
29. MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: According to Ken Jones, terrorism comes from social injustice, in that regard, would you not agree that those we call terrorists are also victims of terrorism, and they are also counterterrorists who have taken guns?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE, YES
30.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI : A BBC investigation has found that Thailand, a country known for its hospitality to tourists, routinely arrests and detains asylum seekers. Many are Pakistani Christians who have fled religious persecution in their own country. Some are children. And they are held despite being UN-registered asylum seekers, whom the UN is under a duty to protect. What has the International Network of Engaged Buddhists done about it?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Well everybody must have what their needs demand, has safety in their life also all these governments have to do that with the help of the UN. The Royinga and the Thai society have to come together.
31.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: Thailand has not ratified the 1951 Refugee Convention and does not recognize the status of refugees. As a result, asylum seekers are not distinguished from other immigrants, legal or illegal. Has the International Network of Engaged Buddhists undertaken any actions to persuade the Thai government?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: There are NGO doing that in Thailand and we are part of the THAI NGO’s movement.
32.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: The eightfold path is one of the cores teaching of the Buddha in fact it is the way toward enlightenment. Right speech is one of the eightfold path. However during a protest on 26 February 2006, Sulak Sivaraksa one of the founding member of the International Network of Engaged Buddhists (INEB) called the deposed Thai Prime Minister Thaksin a pitiful dog. Sulak’s comments were condemned by Somsri Hananantasuk, Chairperson of Amnesty International (Thailand), who said that such words could provoke violence. What does the International Network of Engaged Buddhists say about it?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: Of course Sulak is not yet enlighten, he is also one who seeks the truth. Sometimes he may be driven by hatred, and we have to support him in his spiritual search as a friend, as the Buddha taught, Sulak also needs the community to support and remind if when he goes wrong. Sometimes individual can come with hatred and those individuals need to sit down and meditate more.
33. MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: So the comment of Mr sulak is coming from an enlighten mind?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: yes
34.MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: so wouldn’t you agree with Buddhists who say that, before one has to engage in society, he has to be enlighten otherwise he will do more harm than good?
SUMBOON CHUNGRAMPREE: we don’t know when we will be enlightened, we can keep trying. It is similar like when we start studying, when you engage with the society, you are also doing an exam; it is a text to check whether what you are practicing is awful or useful.
MASSOCKI MA MASSOCKI: THANK YOU.